Note: See also the files: vegetables-msg, Tomatoes-art, tomato-hist-art, pasta-msg, peppers-msg, potatoes-msg, fruits-msg, p-herbals-msg, garlic-msg, seeds-msg



Download 213.83 Kb.
Page1/3
Date12.05.2016
Size213.83 Kb.
#37854
  1   2   3
tomatoes-msg – 2/8/08
The eating and cultivation of tomatoes in Europe.
NOTE: See also the files: vegetables-msg, Tomatoes-art, tomato-hist-art, pasta-msg, peppers-msg, potatoes-msg, fruits-msg, p-herbals-msg, garlic-msg, seeds-msg.
************************************************************************

NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,

Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous

Stefan at florilegium.org

************************************************************************


Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:31:47 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D."

Subject: RE: SC - nightshades
> Does anyone have any period evidence for the "tomatoes and potatoes were

> not eaten because they were in the nightshade family" story? I suspect it

> is an urban legend, but don't actually know.
Tomatoes and potatoes were eaten in period in the New World. And there is

some evidence potatoes were eaten at the end of the SCA period. Since the

potato has been discussed in detail and that discussion is in Stefan's

Florilegium, I won't try to repeat it.


Columbus found the tomato being used as food and brought them back in 1493.

In 1583, the Portuguese introduced then into China and into Japan in 1543.

Apparently they were used as an ornamental plant rather than food.
Gerard's Herball describes the tomato and he comments on their taste, so

apparently, he tried one. (1597)


Doubts about eating the tomato first appear in The Gardener's Dictionary by

Philip Miller, Gardener to the Worshipful Company of Apothecaries at their

Botanick Garden in Chelsea. (1752)
In 1812, James Mease, a Tory who relocated to Nova Scotia at the end of the

Revolutionary War, published the first recipe for tomato ketchup, which he

had originally developed in NJ prior to 1782. He also commented on the

French use of tomatoes.


Apicius Redivivus; or, the Cook's Oracle (1816) has a version of Mease's

recipe.
In 1820, Michel Felice Corne, a Neapolitan painter, introduces the tomato to

Newport, R.I. In the same year, Robert Gibbon Johnson, president of the

Horticultural Society in Salem County, N.J. eats a raw tomato in front of

the Salem courthouse.
My opinions:
The tomato was available within the SCA period, but was not used as a food

at that time.


Since the potato and the tomato were not described as members of the

nightshade family until near the end of the SCA period, being a member of

the nightshade family is probably not the reason they were not eaten.

(Remember, the people who introduced them to Europe knew they could be eaten

safely. They were probably not eaten because there was a limited supply and

people did not particularly care for the taste.) The bad press about being

nightshades, probably comes later and is probably limited to various

localities with vocal proponents of the "deadly tomato".


If memory serves me, Jefferson was introduced to tomatoes in France while he

was the Ambassador and transplanted some plants to Monticello. The tale of

his eating the tomato is probably an urban legend created by someone

replacing R.G. Johnson with Thomas Jefferson when telling the tale of the

tomato eating.
Bear

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:03:30 +0000

From: Gilly

Subject: RE: SC - nightshades


It was written:

>> >The tomato was available within the SCA period, but was not used as a food

>> >at that time.

>>

>> Except that it was described, in period, as eaten in Italy fried.



>

>Interesting. Does it seem to be a localized, late period recipe like the

>German recipe for roast potatoes or do fried tomatoes seem to be widely

>prepared Italian fare?


One of my books quotes a late sixteenth-century English source as saying

that the Italians (or possibly the Spanish) made a sauce of tomatoes and

used it "as we do mustard."
Unfortunately, everything's still in disarray from the move, and I can't

even remember which book, let alone lay hands on it. More later....


Alasdair mac Iain

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:51:46 -0400

From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)

Subject: SC - RE: tomatoes, was Subing????


> 2. Do you have evidence for the use of tomatoes in Middle Eastern cooking

> before 1600?

>

> David/Cariadoc


Hello! There is this from Gerard (originally published 1597, I'm using the

1633 edition, p. 346) describing the 'Apples of Love' (Lycopersicum):


"In Spaine and those hot Regions they vse to eat the Apples prepared and

boiled with pepper, salt, and oile: but they yeeld very little nourishment

to the bodie, and the same nought and corrupt.

Likewise they doe eat the Apples with oile, vineger and pepper mixed

together for sauce to their meat, euen as we in these cold Countries doe

Mustard."


Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu

renfrow at skylands.net

Author & Publisher of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More, A Collection of 15th

Century Recipes" and "A Sip Through Time, A Collection of Old Brewing

Recipes"

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 18:37:35 -0700

From: david friedman

Subject: Re: SC - Subing????


At 2:09 PM -0400 5/29/98, Angie Malone wrote:

>>The only period reference to eating tomatoes I know of refers to Italy in

>>the sixteenth century. I don't know of any period 16th c. Islamic

>>cookbooks; there is a 15th c. one which (of course) does not mention

>>tomatoes.
>What is this period reference? I am curious since I've heard much about

>this tomato debate in many SCA circles, but never knew of any sources.


I think the modern reference is:

Longone, Jan, From the Kitchen, The American Magazine and Historical

Chronicle Vol. 3 No. 2 1987-88.
My comment in the Miscellany is:
"The first European reference to the tomato is apparently one in a book

published in Venice in 1544; it describes the tomato as having been brought

to Italy "in our time" and eaten in Italy "fried in oil and with salt and

pepper.""


Which I think was based on Longone.
David/Cariadoc

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 09:33:01 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D."

Subject: RE: SC - Subing????
According to Waverly Root's Food, Gerard's Herball (1597, if I remember

correctly) described the preparation of tomatoes:


"In Spaine and those hot regions they used to eat the Apples prepared and

boiled with pepper, salt and oyle: but they yeeld very little nourishment

to the body, and the same naught and corrupt."
The plant was described by the naturalist Pierandrea Mattioli in 1544 under

the name "mala aurea" (golden apple), later revised to "mala insana"

(unhealthy apple).
In 1578, Henry Lyte reports on tomatoes being grown in England only in the

gardens of professional herbalists. John Parkinson over 75 years later

(1656) reports that tomatoes were still being grown in herbalists' gardens

as ornamentation and curiosities.


Bear

Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:50:33 EST

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Period Chili



On a side note, the first tomatoes were what we now would call cherry

tomatoes. Interestingly white tomatoes may have been used as an ornamental

plant by the Elizabethans but since this info is from my 20+ plus year old

page of notes that mentions the USDA Ag. Yearbook as . the source of info,

exact reference will have to wait until and if I find the book.

Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:00:33 -0500

From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain

Subject: Re: SC - old world/new world foods


At 21:26 13-1-99 EST, Lady Giuglia Madelena Sarducci wrote:

>Tomatoes didn't make it to Italy until the very end of the 16th century

>(The Italian Pantry by Anna del Conte, 1990),

>so I'm not sure you would want to use them, although I guess you could.


Anybody have a copy of *Seven Centuries of English Cooking* (think that's

the correct title....) handy? I'm pretty sure that's the book I own

(packed away) in which a 16th-century Englishman is quoted as saying that

the people of Spain use tomatoes in a sauce "as we do mustard."


Laird Alasdair mac Iain of Elderslie

Dun an Leomhain Bhig

Canton of Dragon's Aerie [southeastern CT]

Barony Beyond the Mountain [northern & southeastern CT]

East Kingdom

Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:38:35 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D."

Subject: RE: SC - old world/new world foods


> in which a 16th-century Englishman is quoted as saying that

> the people of Spain use tomatoes in a sauce "as we do mustard."

>

> Alasdair mac Iain


"In Spaine and those hot regions they use to eate the Apples prepared and

boiled with pepper, salt and oyle: but they yeeld very little nourishment

to the body, and the same naught and corrupt." -- Gerard's Herball
I suspect this excerpt is part of the quote to which you are referring. It

is the only one I remember about how tomatoes were eaten. IIRC, the date is

1596.
The first botanical description of the tomato is Italian, written by

Pierandrea Mattioli in 1544. He originally referred to tomatoes as "mala

aurea" or golden apple, but later used the term "mala insana" or unhealthy

apple.
Bear

Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:13:33 EST

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Tomatos as potherbs
margolh at nortelnetworks.com writes:

<< the tomato is related botanically to the deadly nightshade, which may

have something to do with this as well as its reputation. >>


Possibly but , IMO, relationship to nightshades most likely has nothing to

do with their reputation. Eggplant is also related to nightshade and it was

widely used throughout period and its roots, leaves and stems are just as

poisonous as any of the New World members of the family..


Ras

Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:29:24 EST

From: LrdRas at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Tomato Theories


mermayde at juno.com writes:

<< I theorize

that the earlier fruits of this plant actually WERE poisonous, perhaps

more so to some than to others. This might explain why some were able to

eat them, while the vast majority viewed them with suspicion and

considered them inedible. >>
It is certainly possible that any people not used to a new food item would be

particularly sensitive to it. In my own case, the first time I ate kiwi fruit,

the entire inside of my mouth was covered with timy little blisters within

minutes. This does not occur now.


While I agree that much has been done in tomato breeding, the original tomato

still grows wild in Mexico. It is like a large cherry tomato for lack of a

better term the fruits are produced more sparsely than modern varieties. While

beef steak type tomatoes have increased dramatically in the past one hundred

years there were and are giant sized heirloom tomatos that date from the

1700's that are not beefsteak types and are still available today. So I would

suspect that breeding was an on-going process. As early as the Elizabethan era

there was a white tomato although no size is mentioned which was most likely

used as an ornamental.
A good source of old varieties is the Seed Saver's Exchange. Pine Tree and not

a few other seed houses carry some heirloom types that date back several

hundred years. Bear Creek Nursery is a good source for old time fruit tree

varieties.


The fact that we have produced new varieties in recent years does not mean

that older and original varieties are not still available. It just takes a

little serching. :-)
Ras

Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:16:44 -0500

From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)

Subject: Re: SC - Feast Service


>> in which a 16th-century Englishman is quoted as saying that

>> the people of Spain use tomatoes in a sauce "as we do mustard."

>>

>> Alasdair mac Iain



>

>Well, looking through "Seven Hundred Years of English Cooking", I

>couldn't find the reference to tomatoes that you cite here. BUT, I did

>find something interesting in the chapter on the 18th Century about




Hello! I found it:
"Poma Amoris. Apples of Loue. [tomato]

...In Spaine and those hot Regions they vse to eat the Apples

prepared and boiled with pepper, salt, and oile: but they yeeld very

little nourishment to the bodie, and the same nought and corrupt.

Likewise they doe eat the Apples with oile, vineger and pepper

mixed together for sauce to their meate, euen as we in these cold

Countries doe Mustard." (From Gerard's Herbal, pp. 345-347.)
There's a similar quote for horseradish:

"...Horse Radish stamped with a little vineger put thereto, is

commonly vsed among the Germanes for sauce to eate fish with, and

such like meates, as we doe mustard; but this kinde of sauce doth

heate the stomacke better, and causeth better digestion than

mustard." (From Gerard's Herbal, pp. 240-242.)


Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu

renfrow at skylands.net

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:05:02 -0700

From: david friedman

Subject: Re: SC - Tomatoes
At 10:07 PM -0600 4/13/99, J. Steve Hamaker wrote:

>If tomatoes are highly used in the 15th century in southern Italy

>and grown wild in England, why can I not find recipes in England or

>France that use tomatoes?

>Much help appreciated!
Tomatoes are a new world vegetable, so not likely to be "highly used" in

the 15th century anywhere in Europe.


I believe there is a reference to eating tomatoes fried in Italy in the

16th c., in a piece by Jan Longone on the history of the tomato. That is

the earliest reference to tomatoes in Europe that I know of.
David Friedman

Professor of Law

Santa Clara University

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:15:26 -0400

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann"



Download 213.83 Kb.

Share with your friends:
  1   2   3




The database is protected by copyright ©www.essaydocs.org 2022
send message

    Main page